Fyrestone Theme/Gameplay Concepts Released!

User Code & Projects
1

These have been sitting for a while, figure we'll let people know now. Tell me what ya think!



LORE:

When the world was forged, magic ran rampant among men and corrupted them. Crime, hatred, and war plagued the world of Kre'thos. Two men of immense power and knowledge, Endymion and Kiron, saw the world as the hell it was. They wished to end the horror, so they gathered 7 followers and together the group of 9 created a magical Fyrestone to absorb and seal the world's magic. After hundreds of years, the Fyrestone had absorbed all the magic of the world.

Their work completed, Endymion and Kiron needed to make sure the magic could never be accidentally released back into the world. They created a powerful blood seal with their seven disciples, and sacrificed themselves to complete the seal. Since the seven disciples helped create the blood seal, the only way the seal could be broken is if all seven of their souls were to be reapplied to the blood seal on the Fyrestone, along with a source of immense magical power to break the final blood seal formed by the sacrifice of Endymion and Kiron. Because of the way their blood was bound, none of the seven could ever die naturally. Understanding this, they each entombed themselves in 7 points throughout the world, where they lie in eternal sleep, defending the Fyrestone by making sure their souls could not be used to break it's seal.

Throughout the ages, races of humans, elves, orcs, and other mystical creatures have walked the earth. Whilst here, the different races have  each found their own unique sources of power during their time on the planet Kre'thos, ranging from new styles of spiritual and elemental magics that were not sealed away with the Fyrestone, to technology like we use today. None of these races ever met each other, they each died out and were born so far apart in the vast expanses of time that their existences were invisible to each other.

Recently, one of the 7 disciples of Endymion and Kiron--named Ek'theros--became so angered at his dismal existence that he set his mind on an evil plot. He awoke himself and stayed entombed, gathering his power back from his slumber that had lasted through eons. Once he had attained his full power, he broke out of his tomb and sought out the other 6 disciples. 1 by 1, he broke into their tombs and sealed their souls inside orbs, then murdered the then-mortal disciples. Ek'theros had murdered 5 out of 6 disciples, but when he came upon the last disciple, he was surprised to find that disciple had already come out of her sleep. She had felt the souls of the other 5 disciples trembling, and knew something was awry. She was not powerful enough, however, to hold off Ek'theros, as he had been gathering his power back for a much longer time than she. Ek'theros was able to steal part of her soul into an orb--but not to kill her. Using the power she had gained back she was able to fight back and escape to the world above.

Ek'theros tore out a piece of his own soul and traveled to the hidden home of the Fyrestone, still standing sturdy as ever with the blood-seal imposed upon it. He gathered many elves (as this occured while elves walked Kre'thos), corrupted by the thought of the immense magical power of the Fyrestone being their own. With the 5 complete souls, 2 partial souls, and the immense army of elves, Ek'theros attacked the blood-seal on the Fyrestone in an attempt to shatter it and return the magic it held to the world.

The Fyrestone, however, backlashed. The orbs were sent soaring into the world, and many of the elves were slain. Ek'theros survived only because of the part of his soul that he did not tear out. It was still bound to the Fyrestone, and since the Fyrestone was able to survive the attack, so was he.

However, Ek'theros and his army did manage to do immense damage to the Fyrestone. In the time at which the seal was weakest, the Fyrestone cracked. Leaking immense magical power, the Fyrestone has caused the world to go into a state of disarray.

Time and space themselves were shattered in the torrent of magical energy. Time periods from all throughout the history of Kre'thos have begun manifesting themselves in random places all throughout the world, turning huge cities of the future back to the glorious capitals of ancient times.

Now Ek'theros and the escaped disciple, Kaethe, have begun gathering new comrades for the immense war to come. Kaethe and her army defending the Fyrestone and attempting to mend it, with Ek'theros and his power-hungry army attempting to further damage the Fyrestone and release magic once more into this world.

Choose your alliance, battle your way through hundreds of different timezones, forge alliances, learn new abilities, and fight for your cause.

Copyright
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I don't know what licence your projects will have, but wouldn't it be a good idea for you two, to join forces. For me it sounds like both of your projects need a lot of manpower. Of course there is a different story and different assets (graphics, sound and such), but maybe you can find a way to work together on the engine part of the games.

I'm sure, there are even more ambitioned MMO projects out there, that might benefit and where you can get help from. I'd love to help in such a project, because this was the original reason once, to join the jME community :wink:

Now i'm part of the MW3D project and this is really cool. Maybe we can help on the tool side too.

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Fyrestone is hoping to be a commercial game (obviously we won't just up-and-skidaddle, we'll be around for a long time to help. I'm planning on writing a tutorial focused on MMOs once I get all of my stuff figured out).



Even at that I would probably have no problem joining forces, but we have limitations on what we can do. All of the coding aspects need to be done by Tag and myself, because it is a Senior Project.



We could probably accept models or particle streams, but we can't accept coding.

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I have to admit, I'm more of a developer than a programmer, so I feel I can post something constructive here.



Your story is interesting… but you need a lot more epic content in the world. You can't just have a single story, however cool - some people won't like it, some people will get bored with it after a while - you need to have lots of variety and depth. Now, I assume you know that, but I just wanted to get it out there.



I'm more interested in gameplay, though… can you post a list of current "class" ideas, and some examples of what each does? Also, having a few spells available to everyone might not be the best idea - it cuts down on variety. Also, do you have a plan for multiclassing?



How does PvP and PvE work? Are they separated, or combined?



What about crafting? Do you have a profession system, or unlimited creation?



Also - it's a good idea to be different from WoW (waaay too many people copy it and fail miserably) but it is, after all a great game. Understanding what it does is a useful exercise.

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PVP and PVE were going to work pretty much like WoW, crafting and other things weren't much of a priority, but will be nice to add if we have time.



A few discipline ideas:


  • Medicine Man (Like a Voodoo magic caster)

  • Marine (Futuristic Human, technically a space marine)

  • Paramedic (Futuristic Human, like a space-doctor)

  • Berzerker / Phalanx / Centurion (Ancient Tanks)



And yeah. The small storylines will be focused on how the main event has affected the people you interact with throughout the game. It's definitely changeable, if you have any suggestions.
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PvP, you don't want to do like WoW if you want it to be great. Look at Eve instead - it's a better concept.



I'm not one for classes, actually. I prefer skill based systems, where what you do (which can be anything) make your character better at it (instead of leveling). It allows for so much more - if you have crafting, for example, you can have a grenadier that bases the gameplay on making explosives and blowing things up. Or, you can have a spellblade type, mixing sword and spells together. The best thing is, if you get the rate of skill increase right, it balances itself out. Abilities require a certain skill level (you have to be able to have a level of proficiency), after which you learn them once, and get better and better at them (using a skill, again). This also allows for customization inside a skill tree which is nice.



I'm working on another MMO, actually (which is why I've thought about the above), so I can't do anything much, but I'd say the more twisted storylines, separate stories, more characters and more history, the better. Just put as much as you can in the world - but don't make it all focus on the main backstory. Have some other stuff going on, as well.

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Cool. Thanks for all of the replies :slight_smile:



You're saying level specific skills up? Like Tabula Rasa?

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No problem. Game design is an obsession of mine.



I haven't played Tabula Rasa, so I can't respond precisely to that.  :frowning: However, since I'm starting a topic devoted to my mmo soon, you can see what I mean in more detail there.



Basically, you have a skill array divided up into 4 categories: Combat (physical reflexes, strength, and so forth), Magic (mental ability), Production (crafting and whatnot), and Misc. (not really a tree, but a place to put non-associated skills like riding, diplomacy, hide/stealth, and the like).



In each tree, you have a subdivision into broader categories - categories of magic, ranged/melee weapons, specific crafting lines. Then you get more specific again, such as swords vs. spears, crossbow to throwing weapons, schools of magic. Then get into either specific weapons, such as one handed sword vs. 2 handed, or abilities (weapon techniques or spells).



Each time you swing your weapon or cast a spell or make something, you gain a few skill points in the appropriate place, then fewer and fewer higher up. The quality of the action is based upon a weighted total of all the tiers (so, for a 1h sword, it's Weapons < Melee < Swords < 1h Sword). The point of this is that at higher "levels" you can start using another weapon without being totally ineffective.

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Sounds pretty close. We may implement something like that. We'll probably all sit down and play MMOs for a while and decide what we like best. At that point we'll also open our private forum to the public (really just devs and friends and such) and decide on the final stuff.

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It wouldn't be a good idea - if you are having a senior project, then it's got both a deadline and limits that I couldn't accept.



Still, as I said before, I'd be happy to offer ideas on the side.

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Pigman said:

It wouldn't be a good idea - if you are having a senior project, then it's got both a deadline and limits that I couldn't accept.

Still, as I said before, I'd be happy to offer ideas on the side.


As I've been thinking about it (which, by the way, I am thinking of Fyrestone constantly) I REALLY like the idea of leveling up your skills. It makes so much sense... If you use Ice Ball a lot you're using a frost magic spell.. So you'll get REALLY good at using Ice Ball, and your other Frost Magics will improve a lot to, and your control over ALL magics will improve a little bit, too.

Just like riding a bike every day makes you really good at riding a bike, but also builds endurance for other activities like  etc.

It's a great concept!
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My Grandfather told me a story about a chap who wanted to play cricket.

Unfortunately for him, there was no cricket club in his area.

Not one to be easily deterred, he would read books and practice in front of a mirror every day.

Eventually, he was able to move to an area with a cricket club.



So he arrived one day, announcing that he would like to play.

It is soon apparrent that he knows his cricket, so they let him pad up and go in to bat.



First ball comes in, he plays a textbook perfect straight drive…

which completely misses the ball, and he is clean bowled.

This continues to happen until the confused onlookers quiz him, and find out that he has never played competitive cricket in his life.



To those of you who read my whole post, I'd give you back that 30 seconds of your life if I could. Really I would  }:-@

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…okay. Was there any reason beyond trying to seem clever for that post?  :?



Oh, I know.  :smiley: It's what levels try to approximate, but we only use levels because previous game did, which did so because they were dealing with inferior technology.

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Yes, this is true, but players won't be standing in front of mirrors casting spells, they'll be fighting.

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Well my real point of view is that anyone who gets an MMO project to the stage where these issues are even an issue, I will just congratulate you not give you advice!



So was attempting to make a point without going into a long ramble about MMORPG's, bearing in mind that it's really a JME User Showcase. Still, here comes a ramble (Note: no refunds of wasted life minutes):



The fact that you have done something over and over does not mean that you are any good at doing it in a full speed, high adrenaline, one chance only situation against a resisting opponent. This is a problem with skill based progression.

The fact you can hit a heavy bag hard doesn't mean you can fight.

Hitting a rat 10,000 times does not mean you are any good at hitting dragons.

Catching a ball aged three with your Dad holding you does not mean you can really catch.

Nuking hard_mob_01 100 times while your much more powerful friend keeps it busy is not the same as nuking it when there is the real possibility of it turning round and ripping your head off.



So skill development isn't necessarily realistic. There are also a number of gameplay issues that level based progression arguably addresses better:



Levels provide a reasonably good approximation of power. It's like a guaranteed minimum standard. This:

Allows you to tune returns - if something is the same of higher level, you get good experience, etc.

Facilitates grouping - you can quickly asses whether someone will be appropriate for what you are doing.

Makes area design easier - you can assume a certain basic level of ability of anyone who comes here.



Skill based progression, on the other hand, has some problems-

Certain skills will be used, by any given class, much more than others and will therefore increase much more quickly. For example, casters will cast a lot, therefore you would expect them to increase quickly. They probably don't get hit that much, so those skills increase slowly.



Fine! That's the idea, right? Well, yes. But see the points above about levels. How will a group judge if the caster they are getting is one who's going to be able to hack it, or one who will get torn apart by the yard trash? What do the guys populating your world use as a base line?



Of course, you could cap skill progression. Skills used a lot cannot progress more than x beyond the average. That will remedy some of the problems. But where's the realism? Haven't you just tossed out the advantages?



You could restrict the situations where you can get skill increases. For example, you must be in combat with something difficult for you (how does the game know what that is?). But that just means players have to spend a lot of time wailing away. They don't have to be effective, to improve.



There are solutions to all these problems. Many of the simpler ones in my view just bring you a step away from being a level system under another name. More elaborate solutions, such as tuning the rate and cicumstances of progress for each skill, incur a lot of extra work. Worth it? Maybe. But it isn't just extra work now, it's extra work every time you change anything. Keeping things in balance becomes exponentially more difficult. Still worth it? Maybe so. You just have to judge whether that time you are continually spending keeping things finely tuned makes the game better, than spending the same time adding other new features.



For reference, most traditional RPGs (and MMORPGs) do include skill based progression. But they also include levels, for some of the reasons above. A prime example of a game that does things differently is EVE. But of course, EVE does things very differently.



EVE uses time based progression. Progression has nothing to do with use of your skills, it is tied to real world time.

EVE was not, at it's inception, really intended to be group based. There was almost no provision for gang PvE combat, it wasn't important if players could really judge eachother's combat ability (in fact not being able to made PvP more interesting).

Lastly, your first impression of someone in EVE is what ship they are in, which was a reasonable judge of what they might be able to do. In a fantasy MMO, you don't have that - you could leave players to inspect their armour, and all their skills - but do you want them to have to do that?



Ramble over.

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I don't think you're seeing the point of the system.


The fact you can hit a heavy bag hard doesn't mean you can fight.
Hitting a rat 10,000 times does not mean you are any good at hitting dragons.
Catching a ball aged three with your Dad holding you does not mean you can really catch.
Nuking hard_mob_01 100 times while your much more powerful friend keeps it busy is not the same as nuking it when there is the real possibility of it turning round and ripping your head off.


Um, your point? The skill system takes all that into account. If you attack something that's extremely good at defending itself, you gain a lot more skill points than if it was weak.

Skill systems go up at a rate depending on the difficulty of the action. So...
Hitting a bag or killing rats isn't difficult at all, so after a while, it's pointless, and you don't get anything from it.
Nuking it when it's attention isn't on you - well, let's see, what is going on? You're getting better at hitting stuff with spells, while not getting better at defending yourself. Okay, what's the problem there?

Levels provide a reasonably good approximation of power. It's like a guaranteed minimum standard. This:
Allows you to tune returns - if something is the same of higher level, you get good experience, etc.
Facilitates grouping - you can quickly asses whether someone will be appropriate for what you are doing.
Makes area design easier - you can assume a certain basic level of ability of anyone who comes here.


Reasonably good approximation fo power? Perhaps mechanistically, but not in any way is it realistic. If I kill a bunch of monsters with fire spells how am I getting better with frost spells at the same rate?

Experience is a fallacy - it's trying to approximate what a skill system does. It's trying to say, I've been fighting a tougher enemy, so I've used my abilities a lot, I'm getting better. The skill system does that on a blow to blow basis. Skill system allows for more freedom with area design, actually - you don't have to adhere to levels, but can instead make more varied groups of monsters.

Skill based progression, on the other hand, has some problems-
Certain skills will be used, by any given class, much more than others and will therefore increase much more quickly. For example, casters will cast a lot, therefore you would expect them to increase quickly. They probably don't get hit that much, so those skills increase slowly.

Fine! That's the idea, right? Well, yes. But see the points above about levels. How will a group judge if the caster they are getting is one who's going to be able to hack it, or one who will get torn apart by the yard trash? What do the guys populating your world use as a base line?


I don't see the problem, really - I mean, I get what you're saying, but it's not that big of a deal. Players already, in any game, have to take a player's word at how good they are, and specialization is already apparent. If a player lies about what they do, they'll get their teammates pissed off at them - and if they make them too mad, the others could just kill the person. That would make players honest, I think. If they want to lie, that's their problem, and they have to deal with the consequences.

Keeping things in balance becomes exponentially more difficult.


Not really. Again, a skill system balances itself out.
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Well, whatever system you each construct, I hope they work out for you.

If it's in JME I will likely play them either way  :smiley:

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We're going to attempt to avoid static mobiles. We really don't want anything that doesn't have a purpose. In the gameplay prop, we talked about questing only… that is because I don't want to have players mindlessly grinding away (perhaps at the endgame phase there will be a little bit of "the grind" but not much).



That always made me hate WoW.

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Pigman said:

Nuking it when it's attention isn't on you - well, let's see, what is going on? You're getting better at hitting stuff with spells, while not getting better at defending yourself. Okay, what's the problem there?


Well, WoW solves the 'problem' in this area by capping the amount of experience you can earn for any kill at a certain level - but it's just sort of a hackish fix on top of a flawed system.  More realistically you wouldn't get more ability from throwing a spell at a massive creature than you would at a low level creature.  In fact you probably wouldnt gain any ability at throwing a spell at all, probably just more skill at fighting that particular creature (knowing it's attacks/vulnerabilities, etc).

Whether those points are going into an experience or skill system the issue would still remain the same.  I think that's probably why he was saying that such systems are just flawed approximations.  It just takes more effort and a different paradigm to implement it properly, so it's almost always done the 'classic' way.


Pigman said:

Keeping things in balance becomes exponentially more difficult.


Not really. Again, a skill system balances itself out.


Balance is a huge issue, and using skills instead of levels does make it much harder.  It makes it so that potentially a player can be majorly vulnerable to one type of creature, and highly overpower another creature of approximately the same 'level'.  This ends up making the game both boring and frustrating at the same time.

I am not advocating using levels, only saying that you need to contemplate carefully how you implement the skills system and think ahead of time how you will balance issues like that.  Sure, it might be realistic, but is it fun?
20

Sorry to turn this into a debate over skill systems, Trussell. By the way, what other backstory do you have for the game?



I think this should be said, actually - you are approaching this from a single player standpoint, while I'm looking at it from the RTS view. There's a difference - an RTS involves large numbers of varied units working together constantly, so specialization is more important the hybridization in general. I also think the system works better for single player RPGs, but it's more difficult to do certain things in that case, and it makes the player work harder.


Well, WoW solves the 'problem' in this area by capping the amount of experience you can earn for any kill at a certain level - but it's just sort of a hackish fix on top of a flawed system.  More realistically you wouldn't get more ability from throwing a spell at a massive creature than you would at a low level creature.  In fact you probably wouldnt gain any ability at throwing a spell at all, probably just more skill at fighting that particular creature (knowing it's attacks/vulnerabilities, etc).


The idea is that you are getting better at the nuking part - say you're casting fireballs and so forth. You'll be getting practice at using those spells when a skillful opponent is dodging them - so, you get better at spellcasting and aiming. However, you aren't troubled with defense, since it's being handled, so you don't gain any ability in that.

Balance is a huge issue, and using skills instead of levels does make it much harder.  It makes it so that potentially a player can be majorly vulnerable to one type of creature, and highly overpower another creature of approximately the same 'level'.  This ends up making the game both boring and frustrating at the same time.


Balance is harder on a single player basis, yeah. But not if you mingle the zones and let the players sort it out for themselves what to do. Giving the players lots of challenges and letting them choose what to do is a way to solve that problem.