Hey All
I started a thread on JavaGaming.org to see whether I could get Java developers to help me petition Sony to allow a JVM to be created for the PS3 (the idea of a Java based PSN version of something like XNA seems a popular idea there)
This is a link to the discussion: http://www.javagaming.org/index.php/topic,19260.0.html
I wanted to get some contact details for Jadestone who used JME to produce the Spirit and Hockey Challenge 2 games which appear in the JME demo reel. So if anyone could help with that, I'd greatly appreciate it.
I'd also encourage you to check out the PS3/JVM thread out and participate if you have anything to add.
Cheers guys!
Peter,
Clocktower Games.
first: SONY will never ever let anyone else use the full potential of the PS3.
second: there is a linux derivate that runs on the PS3 (dont know how legal it is though), the problem there is that inside this linux the PS3 performs a little better than a PS2 
summary: dont waste your time, SONY will never even respond to that petition.
dhdd said:
first: SONY will never ever let anyone else use the full potential of the PS3.
second: there is a linux derivate that runs on the PS3 (dont know how legal it is though), the problem there is that inside this linux the PS3 performs a little better than a PS2 :|
summary: dont waste your time, SONY will never even respond to that petition.
I am not interested in any JVM that is not endorsed by Sony. I have investors to worry about and I'm not chasing "back door" approaches that don't allow you to ship product.
I disagree with your negativity regarding Sony. They are interested in growing markets for the PS3, and Indy / Casual is a fast growing market. I also have good reason to believe that there has already been some work done on this between Sun and Sony. I have a contact inside Sony to deliver my document to, and I've been informed that people withing Sony have been monitoring the JavaGaming thread.
None of that means that it will definitely happen, but can you stow the negativity? I'm interested in people who want to make stuff happen, not those who will not even try.
I'm sorry… and I only read the first few posts on there… but you seem to have a complete lack of understanding on PS3 hardware. Saying
I believe that the multiple core nature of the PS3 would be easier coded to using a language that threads natively, such as Java.
will not help you impress Sony when the Java threading model is completely unusable for the Cell cores. The cell cores (other than the PPC core, which will run Java just fine) are not your regular multithreading cores. They are -for lack of better words- a kind of programmable stream processors.. with huge limitations on code execution, memory access, etc.
While I'm sure it's possible to make some kind of Java API for programming cell cores, and using the PPC core and videocard with OpenGL will work just fine.. you really need to know what you're asking Sony here before they'll ever take you serious. I'd suggest at least reading up on cell hardware first (Arstechica might be a good starting place, though these days there must be plenty or articles on it).
Sadly, Sony's design choices actually will mean it'll be a lot harder to ever get anything like XNA, because as many developers have pointed out that ever for really big studios it takes a very big commitment to be able to learn how to deal with the Cell architecture (and Java will not be able to help there).
I guess you could just use the PPC core and the videohardware, but I doubt Sony will want to have the same games as on Live but just looking crappier.
llama said:
I'm sorry.. and I only read the first few posts on there.. but you seem to have a complete lack of understanding on PS3 hardware. Saying
I believe that the multiple core nature of the PS3 would be easier coded to using a language that threads natively, such as Java.
will not help you impress Sony when the Java threading model is completely unusable for the Cell cores. The cell cores (other than the PPC core, which will run Java just fine) are not your regular multithreading cores. They are -for lack of better words- a kind of programmable stream processors.. with huge limitations on code execution, memory access, etc.
While I'm sure it's possible to make some kind of Java API for programming cell cores, and using the PPC core and videocard with OpenGL will work just fine.. you really need to know what you're asking Sony here before they'll ever take you serious. I'd suggest at least reading up on cell hardware first (Arstechica might be a good starting place, though these days there must be plenty or articles on it).
Sadly, Sony's design choices actually will mean it'll be a lot harder to ever get anything like XNA, because as many developers have pointed out that ever for really big studios it takes a very big commitment to be able to learn how to deal with the Cell architecture (and Java will not be able to help there).
I guess you could just use the PPC core and the videohardware, but I doubt Sony will want to have the same games as on Live but just looking crappier.
I'm not asking for technical input here. I happen to know that the issue is NOT technical, it's political.
I'm not asking HOW to write a JVM for the PS3, I'm asking for Jadestone's contact details - a JME user. I wanted input as to Java content that might illustrate the Java Indy game market. If you want to tell me that this is impossible, then don't bother.
kaffiene said:
...
If you want to tell me that this is impossible, then don't bother.
Hey hey hey, slow down there. You asked for things to add ... we did. ;)
dhdd said:
kaffiene said:
...
If you want to tell me that this is impossible, then don't bother.
Hey hey hey, slow down there. You asked for things to add ... we did. ;)
Heh :)
Look, I just don't need a littany of negativity here. Feedback I've had from Chris M at Sun suggests that this is not impossible : Chris M said that:
"I can tell you two things. First, the OP is moving in the right direction. Secondly, this thread is being watched by people over at Sony.
One last thing. I have been told by some contacts that the OP stated the best strategy to catching Sony corp's attention. Particularly items (a) and (b)."
So there's a choice between trying or sitting on the sidelines and being sarcastic. If you don't think it'll succeed, then by all means don't contribute, but if all you have is negativity - I don't need it!
Also, I need to say - I'm no newb. I actually work as a game developer - multi million dollar budgets and all. I'm not coming at this from a position of ignorance. (Except the threading comment I made which Llama balked at - my bad)
Good luck, you dont get if you dont ask.
Think every java developer would actually be thrilled to be able to port programs to the PS3, it wont just be games too
theprism said:
Think every java developer would actually be thrilled to be able to port programs to the PS3
of course i would be thrilled. i just dont think ... ;)
If there are technical issues you should be aware of them if you want Sony to take you serious. Not make statements that make tear down your credentials that you just listed.
I don't know exactly what it would need, but i disagree, that it is impossible to create a JVM on the cell architecture. If Sun and Sony collaborate on that, it will be possible. The point here is, to show Sony, that there is a market for a JVM for the PS3. Showing them the potential of the jMonkeyEngine as a game engine for the PS3 isn't a bad thing.
I hope you succeed.
You can try to contact them here i guess: http://www.jadestone.se/index.php?page=contact
"Hey Apple, I don't really know how your stuff works, but it seems pretty cool and I'd really like it if I could develop my applications in Visual Basic and deploy on your hardware. Can you help me out?" 
Llama was being extremely helpful to you and you should take it as constructive so you don't sound like a complete idiot…which you are at great risk of doing. You can say all you want about how awesome you are and how big the company is you work for, but you certainly lack the ability to rally anyone with your attitude towards any criticism whatsoever.
Is it possible Sony would respond? Sure. Is it likely? Absolutely not. Stranger things have happened though.
I would suggest everyone who's gonna make any more comments on Cell read up first on what it is and how it works. I did too, so that'd be only fair (for those who want to discuss it).
Also, nowhere did I say it is it impossible to put a JVM on Cell (read back my post you'll see I say the opposite)
darkfrog said:
"Hey Apple, I don't really know how your stuff works, but it seems pretty cool and I'd really like it if I could develop my applications in Visual Basic and deploy on your hardware. Can you help me out?" :)
Where did you get that? XD
llama said:
If there are technical issues you should be aware of them if you want Sony to take you serious. Not make statements that make tear down your credentials that you just listed.
As I said previously, I am not suggesting at all that *I* am going to make a JVM for the PS3. I am also NOT going to discuss any technical details with Sony as I am not qualified to do so - as you pointed out for me.
I am just wanting to have a discussion with Sony about the Java Indy / Casual market. That is all I'm looking for feedback on (and Jadestone's contact details!)
If Sun & Sony released a JVM on PS3 i hope it would come with the PS3 specific graphics library wrapped in Java, and with programmer control over the Cell. Making an OpenGL implementation is complex by itself, and i think it would be better not to have OpenGL (it being old and all), but instead having a modern graphics library that takes full use of PS3. Making the engine work under any gl is not that a big issue, it comes down to triangles and pixels in the end anyway.
Vardamir said:
I don't know exactly what it would need, but i disagree, that it is impossible to create a JVM on the cell architecture. If Sun and Sony collaborate on that, it will be possible. The point here is, to show Sony, that there is a market for a JVM for the PS3. Showing them the potential of the jMonkeyEngine as a game engine for the PS3 isn't a bad thing.
I hope you succeed.
You can try to contact them here i guess: http://www.jadestone.se/index.php?page=contact
thank you! :)
darkfrog said:
"Hey Apple, I don't really know how your stuff works, but it seems pretty cool and I'd really like it if I could develop my applications in Visual Basic and deploy on your hardware. Can you help me out?" :)
Llama was being extremely helpful to you and you should take it as constructive so you don't sound like a complete idiot...which you are at great risk of doing. You can say all you want about how awesome you are and how big the company is you work for, but you certainly lack the ability to rally anyone with your attitude towards any criticism whatsoever.
Is it possible Sony would respond? Sure. Is it likely? Absolutely not. Stranger things have happened though.
Wow.
Thanks, I am a complete idiot. Thanks for that. I'll give up now. Of course, I wasn't ASKING about HOW to make a JVM for the PS3, but you're right - If I ask for an address and some market information, I really should be up with cell processor details.
The JVM model is pretty much unsuitable for Cell, and the Java language (without any VM) is pretty useless for programming cell cores too.
That leaves just the PPC core and the video card (which I think already does OpenGL in the current Sony SDK, though I'm not that up to date on that, that was always Sony's stated intentions).
Some custom API could be made for handeling the Cell part (as I already stated), but that is hardly an "XNA style" development kit then.
This is a bit of an issue for Sony at the moment. Even if some third party, or Sony itself, with/without support of Sun and/or Sony would want to make such a product, it'd still have this issue.
You'd be wise to take that into account.
Good luck, you dont get if you dont ask.I would echo that sentiment.
But also, Llama's point that (just with any pitch to a large organisation) in order to progress, hard questions are going to be ask and harsh criticism made. Better it be on here or Javagaming.
I am just wanting to have a discussion with Sony about the Java Indy / Casual market. That is all I'm looking for feedback on
The first question I would ask would be, can we see some Java games that are beyond the capabilities of a PS2, before we start talking about doing work to unlock the potential of the PS3?